The Forecast

Keegan Goudiss (00:21)
Welcome to the forecast April joy. I'm so glad to have you here. I first learned about April through tick tock, which was an amazing way for me to learn about content creators before it became a tool. The oligarchs last year and we have a mutual friend Lena who is telling me all about you and your work and and so I ended up buying your book Star Spangled Jesus. Leaving Christian nationalism.

which is a fantastic book that I encourage all of you listening to read if you want to learn about April's experience growing up in a daughter of an evangelical preacher and leaving Christian nationalism. And if, uh, you know, if you're interested in learning how to communicate more with evangelicals, which is something I never felt comfortable doing, it's a great starter. Also, if you maybe have a family member that you would like to start disembarking from Christian nationalism.

I also recommend it. April, I'm sure you never hear this, but it's a joy to have you on the forecast and thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me.

April Ajoy (01:19)
Thank you.

Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Keegan Goudiss (01:28)
So I want to talk to you a little bit about your book if that's okay because I you know I I really enjoyed it and found some inspiration but first there was something I was trying to remember this morning so I googled you which is maybe becoming a lost art thanks to chat GPT and and I found your your threads account which I don't use that much because I'm sort of like anti-meta these days.

April Ajoy (01:47)
Mmm, fair.

Keegan Goudiss (01:55)
So I hadn't actually looked at your threads account yet and there was a hilarious post from from yesterday where someone commented that that I think you're all gingers are are evil and.

April Ajoy (02:07)
yeah, was his personal hell would be waking up to a ginger every day. So yeah, try to be someone's nightmare. It's always fun.

Keegan Goudiss (02:11)
And so I'm not like.

So I was I really stuck stuck in my head because I'm not full on ginger, but I do have a red beard thanks to my Scottish heritage, although some that is more gray now than than red. And I'm particularly sensitive to people. Tacking ginger, so I I'm sorry on behalf of the Internet that.

April Ajoy (02:35)
it's fine. I've

actually, I mean, I don't get them too often, but I've had my fair share of weird ginger comments. I think the weirdest one that I got was that redheads are the reincarnation of the fallen Nephilim in the Bible. Now, and they said the soulless fallen Nephilim. you know.

I just, was like, wow, that's very creative. I hadn't heard that one before. It was in my Twitter bio for a while. So let's reincarnation of the fallen Nephilim at your service. Yeah.

Keegan Goudiss (03:04)
That's amazing. Yeah, well, thank you for joining me.

Yeah, so in your book, like there's so much that I that I really enjoyed and that I learned. I mean, I could spend the entire time, but I actually want to talk a little more about the current political environment. And and so, you know, obviously, we could come back to it, too. But

The thing that really fascinated me was learning about mosh pits that you had at Christian music concerts. Can you explain a little bit more to me and our listeners how that came to be and how frequent do Christian evangelicals partake in mosh pits?

April Ajoy (03:30)
Mmm.

I don't know if it was just like a particular time, but in evangelicalism, there is this, or especially in just Christianity in general, especially the more nationalistic brand, is this desire to provide everything. Anything that you can get from a secular world, hey, we've got a Christian version for you. And so rock music, heavy metal, screamo music,

hardcore rock. There were Christian versions of that. the one of the youth groups that I went to when I was a senior in high school was very focused on the Christian rock genre. In fact, our worship band that I was part in, our, our worship leader wrote a lot of our original like songs that we would do. And there was always screamo parts in it. And so whenever we would get to these screamo parts that we would do in our actual like youth group service,

we'd clear out the front and actually have, I guess, Christian mosh pits. And it just became a thing. Like I got really into it. I mean, not just our own band, but going to Christian rock concerts, you know, because the parents technically couldn't say no because they screamed Jesus positively in the songs. They were Christian. So it wasn't devilish or anything, even if you couldn't really understand what they were saying.

Keegan Goudiss (05:04)
Well, so I and I listened to your book as an audiobook and I really appreciated you you you demonstrating some of the lyrics.

April Ajoy (05:12)
I know when I was recording it,

there's like a producer in my head and I was like, should I actually like try it? She's like, yeah. I was like, okay. So yeah, screaming, screamo in an audio book.

Keegan Goudiss (05:24)
Do you mind?

Is it too much to ask for you to to give us a little taste of that here? I know you're not. know you're not prepared so we can come back to it if you want.

April Ajoy (05:27)
man, I'm gonna peak my microphone probably.

Well, I would just practice, because I was a vocalist, so I would sing, but I really wanted a chance to do the screamo part too, know, like women can do everything, of course. So I would like practice in the mirror like, Jesus, Jesus, trying to do it on key. But yeah.

Keegan Goudiss (05:47)
Hahaha

There's so I only a few folks know this about me, but one of my passions is is doom metal like the specific genre and I spent a long time in DC and probably not a band you listen to when you're younger pentagram really like pioneered that genre out of DC DC is only known for a few things culturally go go music doom and obviously there's a pretty couple pretty popular punk bands that came out of here too and

April Ajoy (05:58)
Mmm.

Mm.

Keegan Goudiss (06:18)
and that that genre probably doesn't align like in the Venn diagram of screamo I would say pentagram and Jesus related material was very far away. But I it made me very excited because I had no idea and one the things I loved about your book was just like developing you know, sort of like finding areas where

April Ajoy (06:33)
Yeah.

Keegan Goudiss (06:46)
you you can like, find common ground with the Christian nationalism community. I was raised by former hippies. I was raised fairly agnostic, although at one point they did baptize me when I was like 10 because they I don't know what happened, but they decided maybe just in case there was the rapture or something they should baptize me. But I didn't really have a very

pro Jesus upbringing for a lack of a better description. And I'm curious like as you and your journey, which as you as you mentioned your book was was not easy. So I don't want to make it sound like that.

April Ajoy (07:09)
Mm.

Keegan Goudiss (07:22)
as you've come to like sort of bridge cultures from Christian nationalism to where you're at now, were there things that you saw in common with other people who are not evangelical when you were younger?

April Ajoy (07:35)
Yeah. I mean, I think it's hard because you weren't ever really around people that weren't in my circles already. And if I was, you know, like in public school or whatever, I viewed people who weren't Christians as potential believers, like people that I needed to try to convert and save. So there was, even though I may be around people that weren't in those circles, I didn't have a curiosity to know where they were coming from because we were taught like,

we have absolute truth. Why do you need to learn anything else? Kind of mentality. so I could even like hear other perspectives, but I wasn't giving any credence to it because it was dangerous. Like we were also taught like any outside belief or any different perspective that doesn't come from your Christian worldview is basically satanic. Like it's good or evil. And even if it sounds good on the front, like on the surface,

you know, the devil comes as an angel of light and can be deceptive and there's pleasure in sin for a season. So if there were like people who weren't evangelical that had a lot of success that were doing really well, even maybe seemed like good family people, it's like, well, there's pleasure in sin or a season and then destruction comes later.

So yeah, in the world but not of it is a phrase that they say in church a lot of the time, like that's your goal, you're in the world but you're not of the world. So you can be around people that think differently but you're not of them. It's a very us versus them mentality.

Keegan Goudiss (09:03)
Well, sort of on that. On that being there, do you mind if we talk about persecution? It's you know, Wednesday lunchtime. So let's talk persecution. I that was one thing that really stood out in the book and it created a light bulb in my head was around how much.

April Ajoy (09:09)
Yeah, sure.

Keegan Goudiss (09:24)
Christian nationalist identity centers around persecution and to like

April Ajoy (09:27)
Mm-hmm.

Keegan Goudiss (09:29)
you all being very proud of that persecution. And it caused me to wonder, because I think a lot about like, well, how can we bridge some of these divides right now? I feel like our country is not on a great track. And I am convinced that, you know, the the left's practice of shaming people hasn't really worked very well. In in trying to get more people to our side, you know, like I get frustrated because I feel like

April Ajoy (09:38)
Mm-hmm.

Keegan Goudiss (09:56)
there's basic math of politics that you need to add people, not subtract or divide them, right? Like, and, and so I've been thinking a lot about

Is there is there a way to to find common ground with Christian nationalists?

And to me, like the whole idea of what's happening now, where the federal government may actually be persecuting members of Christian Nationalists is an opportunity right for them to like change their perspective. But you're much more of an expert here. So I'm curious what you think like, is there something? Is there something there?

April Ajoy (10:31)
I mean, I think they're gonna claim persecution whether there's persecution or not because I don't think there's been persecution of Christians in America. Anytime I've known about it on a widespread level like they claim, know, and I'm saying that as someone who used to believe there was Christian persecution in America and.

like full, full with my whole chest believe that Christians in America were persecuted despite having never been persecuted in America as a Christian. And I think the reason why, there's a couple reasons why they talk about persecution so much is that one, the Bible,

says they will hate you like they hated Jesus and that you will be persecuted. Like it says you will be persecuted for your faith. Basically, if you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, you'll be persecuted for it. Which is hard to come by in America when every single president has claimed some form of Christianity and there's churches on every corner. There's not really Christian persecution. The persecution that they bring up is almost always

someone being held accountable for discriminating against someone or for being a bigot. They have conflated accountability with persecution. So as long as you have that mindset, it's going to be hard to talk to someone in that world because they will take your criticism or even your just difference of opinion as

persecution if you if you are calling someone out and saying like hey what you're doing is actually really harmful they're like you're attacking me for my beliefs so they have they have like equated harming people as a Christian beliefs and and so it can be really hard to get past that because you're they are trained in that world a lot of people from like child that anything that that seems to go against Christianity even if it's like a breath like a

is persecution. So that's, that can be hard to get through. It will be interesting though, these next few years, because like ironically, I'm still a Christian, but I'm just a progressive Christian now. And I actually, I mean, I wouldn't even call it persecution because I think it takes away from like people who are actually persecuted in foreign countries.

but I've experienced more.

hate since I've become a progressive Christian than I ever did when I was a conservative Christian. And that hate has come from my own community, from people that I used to go to church with. And it's ironic too, like Donald Trump just made this anti-Christian task force and brought in Paula White to lead a faith office. And the whole point is to weed out anti-Christian bias, which does not exist.

Like that because and he did that just like a couple weeks after he said really hateful nasty things about a bishop, a Christian bishop who asked for him to, you know, who asked for mercy in her sermon at a church. So when they say Christian bias, they're not talking about progressive Christianity. They're not talking about Christians who are going out and actually like spreading the teachings of Jesus.

Their anti-Christian bias is actually just a dog whistle for anti-Christian nationalism and for the bigotry that they hide behind their Christian faith.

Keegan Goudiss (14:06)
Well, so that's that's really great context. Thank you for sharing that. I'm curious if I had a million dollars. As like April, I want to start organization with you.

try to prevent handmaiden's tale from happening, right? Like, you know, to me, and please tell me I'm wrong. But like, to me, my biggest fear with like the the growth of power in the Christian nationalism community is they want a world I don't want where it's like, you have to adhere to the gender roles that they control. It's all about like erasing any bad deeds of the past, not learning from history and just giving power to like,

some guys that they decide should be like the father figures that rule this country and women and other people who don't adhere to their belief system are, you know, diminish harmed even killed, right? Like just to me, the path that we're on is extremely, extremely dangerous. So logically, I'm like, well, we have to convince some of them. This is not the right path. And to me, as someone who is more agnostic, but very much a humanist,

April Ajoy (15:03)
Mm-hmm.

Keegan Goudiss (15:11)
and a big believer in the golden, well, both golden rules really, but like the main golden rule. You know, I'm like, you're harming other people. This isn't what Jesus would want, but I recognize that doesn't actually get through. I'm hoping that you can give me some hope here. If we had some funds, how would we change some minds here?

April Ajoy (15:29)
Yeah. So the hard part is, getting information in front of them because so many of them have been trained and it's like a default to only trust source, like specific sources. And right now in Christian nationalism, that's Trump, really just Trump, because I mean, they listen to Fox news and OAN and all that stuff too. But if Trump says something that goes against that, they listen to Trump.

but I do think in these next few years, a lot of what Trump's doing right now is going to negatively harm everybody unless you're super, super, super rich. which means a lot of Trump supporters are going to have to reconcile what they've been taught is happening versus their reality. That's not going to change people because a lot of people will double down because people have a hard time admitting that they're wrong. There's a lot of pride involved.

But I do think more and more people will start to be open to hearing other ideas as this chaos continues and prices of eggs do not come down and keep Right, right. And now that DEI is gone they're not gonna have really like the people that they would blame usually or the groups they would blame are not gonna Be be around to be able to take that doesn't mean they won't try But yeah, so I think

Keegan Goudiss (16:30)
It's DEI's fault that my growth views are so expensive.

April Ajoy (16:48)
I mean, I've had, I've heard from, from several people that gave my book actually to family members that were MAGA. And I would imagine they weren't like hardcore Trump supporters, but like, I feel like as long as someone just has like a teensy teensy bit of an open mind, you can get in there. And I've heard, and they said that a few people have actually decided to not support Donald Trump after reading my book.

So I think a lot of that is not just my book, but it's the ability to see themselves in someone else's story who was them, but changed. Like people who can speak their language. Like I think one thing that could be very beneficial, you see Charlie Kirk, he goes to colleges all across the country and debates students. I mean, he's mostly trolling, but he's talking to college students.

you know, Joe Rogan really tapped into young males this last election. And I think if we did something like that, but instead of going to public colleges, secular colleges like Charlie Kirk's doing, sending Christians, progressive Christians to Christian colleges and do the same thing Charlie Kirk does, but with Christians there. cause, cause I think most people who perpetuate Christian nationalism,

are only doing so because they actually believe or they have convinced themselves that it's the right thing, that it's what God wants them to do, that it's true Christianity. And so there's a lot of cognitive dissonance that they're constantly having to like white-knuckle. And if you can pull that thread just a little bit, it unravels really quickly. And so like getting in front of people who are genuinely trying to, like who think they're good people, who think they're doing good and that they're following God.

and you show them like, you know, Jesus, do you really think Jesus would be saying to deport all these immigrants? Like some of them are here legally and we're just shipping them off. We're separating families. When Jesus said to welcome the foreigner, then, you know, do you think Jesus would be cool with the way Trump's treating like demonizing entire Democrat, like all Democrats as evil. When Jesus said to love your enemy, like there's little things you could say. Cause I think

a lot of people in this world, and I'm not talking about the people at the top who are benefiting from these systems and making money off of these people, but your average church-goer, good old boy who really just thinks they're doing the right thing, they want to be a good person. And if you can show them how the policies that they have supported, how the rhetoric that they've said is actually harming people, and they can recognize that, I think,

The good in them will make them change if they have integrity. And a lot of them do. They've just been very, very indoctrinated and misguided. And I'm not one that thinks like, don't believe most MAGA people are evil. I think they are capable of doing evil things. And obviously they have elevated a man who is just wrecking our constitution right now. But I don't think they're evil people. I think they're very, very misguided.

You know, and I think they may, a lot of them have good intentions, but good intentions do not negate impact, and that impact is still harming a lot of people. And I think once we can, you know, we appeal to people's goodness, and they can change. Now I know that's not going to be the case for a lot of people, because I think there are a lot of really cruel people in that movement, and they're using Trump's policies as a shield to be cruel.

Keegan Goudiss (20:33)
Yep.

April Ajoy (20:33)
But I'm just talking

about most people who are like in it because of their Christian beliefs, who just genuinely believe that they're doing good. I really do believe we're going to see a lot of them changing their minds in the next few years.

Keegan Goudiss (20:44)
I agree. I hope I hope we're both right there. It's it's it's going to be a tough road. I wonder if we started a Christian rock band. We can't we can't call it Creed because that name was taken, but like we. But you had it. actually some really great band names like Jesus feed us in your book. But I. If we created a Christian rock band.

All about the rapture, right? Like we we we do like the classic bait and switch. We have content they want and then we slowly transition the songs into something that maybe gets into question. Do think that could that could work? mean like you went on a like multiple year very painful journey and the thing I'm concerned about is like it's really hard road and how do we before it's too late get a lot more people right? Just shift culturally.

And to shift from like what their upbringing with is was is

April Ajoy (21:36)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. mean, media, we've got to get in front of them. Um, the hard part is getting them to consume the media that they need. mean, we're living in an age where all the world's information is at our fingertips. Like we can Google anything, but people just don't, you know, like there's the, the phrase is ignorance is bliss for a reason. And I think most like, I think people are dodging facts as much as they can, because it's, it's easier to keep your narrative going. If you just avoid.

anything that goes against it.

I mean, maybe a rock band would work. I don't know. feel like lot of the people, especially older generation, would be like, that's devil music. Or getting a movie on Pure Flix that has a very welcome the immigrant message. But I mean, sadly, it's going to take people that they know, probably, more likely, which is why I think it's so important for those who have family who are MAGA. I understand.

people who cut family members off for their own mental health, for their own reasons. There are people who are toxic that you do not have to live with or be around. I'm not advocating for that. But for people who feel safe enough to confront their family members, I've found that is the best way. And not confronting in a way of like, you're wrong, you're stupid, da-da-da-da, like, because.

They'll know like they're taught to just go into defense mode. If you come across at them like you're smarter or you're talking down or whatever. The best way I found is to ask them questions. Get them to explain their position. Because almost every time they start fumbling their words and honestly they might they'll just repeat some talking points. They might double down but in the back of their head and I know this from experience. They realize what they're saying doesn't make sense.

You know, even like with Trump, mean, Trump is saying, obviously you can bring in Jesus to it. Like, well, how do you reconcile Jesus teaching this while you're saying the opposite that, that, that'll get them going too. But Donald Trump, he's, he says opposite things all the time and lies about stuff that, know, just say like, well, well, Trump said that he was going to lower your taxes, but why is his current tax plan going to raise money for everybody? Unless you make like,

several hundred thousand dollars a year. Like, do you think he's, like, how does that help you? You know, just how does getting rid of the department of education help your disabled kid? You know, like there are Republicans that have disabled kids that are going to be very negatively impacted by what he's doing. And I think just asking those questions, like, how is he helping the American people?

by this policy or by this policy, how does that benefit you? And just get them to explain it. And you don't even have to make a comment. The key is to get people to start thinking on their own, not telling them what to think. Because if you tell them what to think, they will just shut down because it goes against what they've been taught. But if you ask them questions and they get their wheels turning,

That's when you can take those baby steps towards getting them to change.

Keegan Goudiss (24:57)
There was a term I never heard about in your book. can't remember right now which had written it down but it was like when when you're proselytizing and you're just giving people like lit right like you see him outside the supermarket. There was some like pump and dump kind of

April Ajoy (25:11)
what is it?

He wasn't pump and dump. know what you're saying. It's called witnessing, like sand and not scram. Like you hand them a track, hand and scram. Yeah.

Keegan Goudiss (25:13)
No, it's not popping. That's something very different.

Hand in scram. Yeah, I love that. And I was reminded

me. I've been working in politics for a long time and I got into it perhaps foolishly because I wanted to help people. And I look back at that decision and sometimes question it because you know, like, frankly, you meet grifters on all sides and people are not, know, maybe they don't realize that they're doing it for the wrong reasons. But then, you know, I mean, I tend to think people are generally good folks and want to do good things. But

April Ajoy (25:29)
Mm.

Yeah.

Keegan Goudiss (25:48)
you're in this business for a while and you see some stuff that like you're like, are you really helping people on both sides? Right? Doesn't matter Democrat, Republican, independent, whatever label you adhere to. There's there's bad stuff that's happening. But like one of my earliest memories of being like a political advocate was was was trying to do door knocking and being like one trying to like hand out literature and convince people but also like this would happen a lot at churches.

April Ajoy (25:55)
Yeah.

Keegan Goudiss (26:15)
where people would flyer all the cars when folks were were at church be like, Democrat, like Keegan Goodes kills babies for like fun and pleasure, you know, like it would just be like really, brutal. One page, you know, like awful imagery. And you get into this your book a little bit like, you know, Christians don't like too much violence unless it has to do with like, displaying what happens to fetuses, right. And it was

April Ajoy (26:18)
Mm.

Hmm.

Keegan Goudiss (26:43)
always really frustrating for me because I'm like man these people are like some of these people are going to read this and think that like the worst like this person is going to help them and they're not like and they're getting like dissuaded by just like this this paper flyer that's been littered on their car. And so I was thinking about reading your book I was like one I did buy it for two family members I haven't I did it anonymously because I thought it was like more mysterious if they just receive it in the mail.

April Ajoy (27:05)
Nice.

Keegan Goudiss (27:09)
Like what? What did Amazon send me? So I'm waiting. I'm hoping for such a media post and like who sent me this book? Thank you. You change. I'll report back to you. But yeah, like I almost want to like break down some bits of it and go to go to like churches around here and put it on their cars to see if it'll like lead some folks to thinking about it. I mean, like are you?

April Ajoy (27:15)
You

Hopefully.

Keegan Goudiss (27:38)
Because you use social media as your primary platform to get your message out. Do you find like any issues with getting your message in front of folks? Do you ever feel like your shadow band at all because of what you're talking about?

April Ajoy (27:49)
Yeah, if I use certain words, mainly on TikTok, I've noticed it'll flag it. But I don't know. I keep hearing about people being shadow banned. There's no evidence for it. Anytime I've sent in a request, you don't hear anything. But I think it's more.

Honestly, on Metta, I've noticed I feel like my content gets pushed more to conservatives. Like, because I think they value rage bait. Not that my stuff's rage bait, but because I'm pushing, I do a lot of satire videos that pokes fun and pokes at hypocrisy on the right. So obviously, it gets people mad. And I feel like Instagram more so lately has been

pushing it towards people who would respond in hateful ways versus people that would like it more. And I've noticed too, like lot of my algorithm, especially on Twitter or X, whatever, I don't even follow right-wing people, but I see their stuff more than anything. So I don't know if it's like they're wanting to...

like to build up this just clash of ideas. But I mean, I don't know. think I haven't noticed personally for me that my content isn't getting out there too much.

Keegan Goudiss (29:09)
Do you think

the rage bait can help get them to think too? they just want to be mad online, right? Everybody likes to be mad online. It's not going to cause any questions.

April Ajoy (29:19)
I do

think they just want to be mad. think that's a piece of it. But I think when people get triggered, they're getting triggered because you hit a nerve in some way. And I've found too, because I do post serious videos every once in while where I'm just like, here's some knowledge, or here's facts, or whatever.

But I try to keep it more on the humorous side. So I do a lot of satire. And I do think that comedy can disarm people a little bit more where the message might get through. Because if I'm doing a satire piece in Middle Earth, and I'm saying, if MAGA was in Middle Earth, here's what they would be saying. Right. Then it's like, I feel like it just can get through in a way because they can somewhat separate themselves because they're not in Middle Earth.

Keegan Goudiss (29:59)
I love those videos.

April Ajoy (30:10)
So I don't know who knows how much I mean, I do hear from people that says like they started thinking and they've changed their minds since watching my content, but I really don't think I just don't think online is going to be the place where most minds are going to be changed.

Keegan Goudiss (30:25)
No, I agree. And I thought about this a lot. I actually think that the left is too online. We've put like two like we just sort of swung the other way. And we forgot how to talk to people in real life. You know, like, whether it's Christian nationalism, evangelicals who aren't Christian and nationalists, which I'm sure is like, like a genre that exists where you're evangelical, but you're not a Christian nationalist, at least I have friends, friends who me

April Ajoy (30:31)
Hmm.

It does exist. I

think it's hard to be that, but yes, they exist.

Keegan Goudiss (30:52)
And yeah, mean, like, like going to church is like such a great opportunity for community building, right? And there's all these things that that happen, regardless of religion that is sort of built in way of building community offline. And, you know, a lot of progressives are not not that good at that anymore. I I think it's changing. I the pendulum is swinging the other way. But I love your idea to go back to what you mentioned before of going to.

Christian universities and challenging people there. I'm curious like to do something like that. You know, like how much of your time could you dedicate? Like, mean, because you're only one person until we can clone you. Like, are there other people you think that you could recruit so we would have like a whole college tour? Or are you going to like go on the road six months of the year?

April Ajoy (31:42)
I mean, I don't have the funding for this. Yeah, yeah, no. I don't know if you're familiar with Tim Whitaker. He founded the New Evangelicals. He would be a great person for that. There's like a whole slew of people, Jamar Tisby, who wrote Color of Compromise. He's been speaking out against Christian nationalism. Honestly, there's quite a few progressive,

Keegan Goudiss (31:45)
Well, I'm hoping that we'll try to find a way to raise money for it to be very transparent.

April Ajoy (32:06)
Honestly, I don't even like the term progressive Christian because I feel like we're just being Christian But following the teachings of Jesus is considered woke now But yeah, they're a Jamar Tisby a Kristen Dume who wrote Jesus and John Wayne Katherine Stewart I Yeah, I mean if we can make like a whole little Avengers army of people who

Keegan Goudiss (32:14)
Bye.

April Ajoy (32:27)
are still Christian. Cause I do think, unfortunately though, I, and this is one thing that I do think Democrats have not done the best job at. And I totally understand why, but they have not really talked about Christianity on their platforms. They talk about faith kind of generically and they'll mention other religions and they like might mention Christianity. But if you looked at like the party platforms,

Democrats basically just kind of mentioned religion generically. Republicans only mentioned Christianity. And so there's already this narrative in right-wing Christianity that Democrats hate God, that Democrats are anti-Christ, which is stupid and it's not true, but they have this idea. So unfortunately, I think the best way to reach them is going to be from other Christians who...

speak the language who probably a lot of them used to be conservative and come from that world. Because you're also taught, don't listen to atheists, don't listen to agnostics, don't listen to Muslims or Buddhists or Hindus, like don't listen to anybody who's not a Christian. Which granted they would say, they would tell you I'm not a Christian, that I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing. But.

I always gonna be like, actually the Bible says you're not supposed to judge someone's heart and their salvation. So like they're literally committing a sin when they tell me that I'm not a Christian. So I can just like throw that back in their face. Right, right. Yeah, I've got that going against me too. But yeah, I think I wish Democrats could be like, they just need to say out loud like we love Christians. Like it's stupid that you have to cater to them.

Keegan Goudiss (33:51)
You're a ginger wolf.

April Ajoy (34:07)
but they have convinced themselves that Democrats hate Christians and when Democrats continue to not mention Christianity, that just fuels the, like fans the flame and gives them more ammo. and, you know, and a lot of it though, they make up like Kamala Harris at that rally where she told the hecklers that they were at the wrong rally. They were pro-life hecklers saying a whole bunch of stuff.

Keegan Goudiss (34:26)
Yes. Yeah.

April Ajoy (34:31)
Some woman in the back recorded a guy yelling Jesus is Lord, but he was in the back of the room and there's no way Kamala Harris heard him say that. And even if she did, they were disrupting her rally and they were obviously Trump supporters, but they took that and said, Kamala Harris hates Christians. She hates God and people believed it, like fell for it a hundred percent.

So I mean, and I think it's stupid that Democrats have to cater to them and like hold their hand and like, no, no, no, we do like you. But I just think that's the reality for a lot of people.

Keegan Goudiss (35:10)
Yeah, I totally agree. mean, I like I can only speak for myself here. Just faith is really important to me understanding like religion and and and culture around that is really important to me. It just it's never been something that that really drives me. I feel like I can be a good person without going to church every day or talking about Christianity a lot or other religions a lot. I actually found out not that long ago that I have a very strong lineage to Jewish heritage. And so like that.

caused me to like try to learn more about Judaism just because I was curious right about about my family history and why my great grandfather who came to this country as a Jew from Ukraine well then Russia but now Ukraine why he changed his last name he married like a wasp and like completely abandoned his Jewish heritage and I don't know he's not around I can't ask him I but it was just really interesting learning about Jewish culture at that time

April Ajoy (35:41)
Nice. Yeah.

Keegan Goudiss (36:08)
immigrants here and that were deciding to to become Christian, right? Partly because they wanted to fit in and not be persecuted. I but I agree with you. I mean, there's like always it doesn't pop up as much anymore, but especially with like Catholic Democrats. Certainly there are periods like Nancy Pelosi, you know, gets talked about a lot. Biden mainly around like abortion, right? Like trying to

April Ajoy (36:33)
Yeah.

Keegan Goudiss (36:34)
to

to walk a fine line there with their faith and and and Democrats around reproductive rights. But I wish it came up more because I like I don't know. I feel like if I was an alien that came to this planet and read the Bible and looked at like what Democratic policies were and Republican policies, I'd be like Democrats are the party of Jesus. You know, maybe a couple of things that you wouldn't be like, well, maybe not that one, but like.

everything else like clearly like the party of Jesus. Why? Why are these people think this Trump guy is like, like better than Jesus all of a sudden, right? I don't guess what I'm just meandering around right now. So I appreciate you letting me take the stroll in my own mind. But like, why? Why is it that like, Christian nationalists don't see Trump as like a golden calf, right? Like, like, that's something that's like very, very

April Ajoy (37:06)
Yeah.

Keegan Goudiss (37:28)
clear even or take even further like is the Antichrist like isn't isn't there something that happens like with folks where they're like hey maybe we shouldn't be worshipping this guy so much.

April Ajoy (37:31)
Mm-hmm.

You would think, I mean, honestly, I asked myself this question too, because to me, it's so obvious that he's not.

a Christian, and, and, and much less a hero of the faith. but indoctrination dies hard and, and obviously I've been removed from evangelicalism for years now. So it's easier for me to see it's easy for outsiders to see it when you're not inside. But I will say that looking back in hindsight, I can tell that.

what they value, what evangelicals value more than anything is shared beliefs, a shared ideology, more than what people actually do. So, you know, it's why so many pastors that committed adultery or abused kids, how a lot of them historically, it's changed more recently, but historically a lot of it got swept under the rug.

pastors were restored or just moved because of shared ideology. And same thing with getting divorced or just having affairs, which Trump and probably everyone in his cabinet has probably done. But it's OK. They can excuse so many different types of behaviors as long as the ideology is there. And that person can give them power.

And that's been probably one of the more disappointing things is that I genuinely believed that we were about just following Jesus and loving people and doing good, like loving our neighbor, helping our communities, doing that, regardless of what power that gave us. Like power should have never been a goal in Christianity. Like Jesus.

never sought power. He did the opposite of that in the gospels. And then when I realized how much of my beliefs were actually centered around gaining us Christians power, I was like, gosh, we're not actually following the teachings of Jesus at all. What is this? But that does explain how they can elevate someone like Donald Trump because he, I mean, he became their bulldog. He has, you know,

embolden the worst parts of white Christians. And I do think there's a lot of rage in evangelicalism because the theology itself is oppressive. When you're taught that your thoughts, just thinking a thought is the same thing as committing that act, which is what I was taught. When you're taught, you know, like there's so much sexual repression and like purity culture and all of this stuff that I do think it

builds up this almost, this rage and this anger, and you are not happy because you're, you're, you're, you know, white knuckling your faith. You're holding everything down. There's so much of the faith that actually doesn't make sense too. But when you add in just like really heavy beliefs, like everyone around you who isn't a Christian is going to hell. It's going to burn alive forever. Gay people, if you have a gay son, they're going to hell. Like that's a lot.

of trauma to hold. obviously, they don't view it as trauma because it's what they believe. And I'm not excusing it. I'm just saying that belief system in and of itself, when you believe that God would just punish you not for doing the wrong thing, although they believe that too, but they believe in grace. Again, cognitive dissonance. But that God would punish you if you just happen to believe the wrong things.

Like, but then you also have to convince yourself that God is good. Like God is good, but God does these it's, it's a very, it's just an exhausting belief system.

Keegan Goudiss (41:18)
Yes, I'm already

like exhausted thinking about it.

April Ajoy (41:21)
Right. But you're always told like if you have doubts or if you have problems with the belief system, it's a you problem. It's because you have too much sin or you've let the devil into your life. And then you're like having to figure out, no, when did I let the devil into my life? Is it because I watched this show? Is it because I read that book? Is it because of this friend? Like it's just you're the mental gymnastics for people who are actually like doing it right. Like if you're doing everything that you're supposed to be doing in that belief system, it is absolutely exhausting.

Keegan Goudiss (41:27)
Yeah.

So I remembered when I was wandering before about Democrats and we came back to to go after Trump. And so I remembered while you're answering one to one to actually ask you about Democrats. Because I agree with you. I think it's like really, really. I'm going to put myself in the shoes of like a Democratic speechwriter. There's all these traps you're trying to navigate. Right. And abortion is always like a big one for faith.

I'm curious, like if you were running for office, like imagine we were we were you were running for Congress and you were trying to appeal to Christians as a Democrat.

April Ajoy (42:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Keegan Goudiss (42:23)
How would you talk about abortion?

April Ajoy (42:25)
I would be honest, and I would say, I don't like abortion. I don't like that there's a need for abortion in this country. And I would say that abortion is a symptom of a problem. And we've been so focused on trying to solve the symptom, but we're not focusing on solving the problem. And the problem is unwanted pregnancies. And what I would do is I would show statistics that from other countries, the more

The less restrictions that they have around abortion, abortion rates actually go down. And the more access to, but because simultaneously when they have less restrictions on abortion, they usually have comprehensive sex education. They have universal healthcare. They have easy and affordable access to birth control. They have paid family leave. They have livable wages. There are so many other factors that go into why a woman would get an abortion.

And none of those factors are being talked about. On the flip side, I would also talk about how what we were taught about abortion, I would say it from my own personal experience too. What I was taught about abortion was not the truth. I was taught a sensationalized view that it was always murder, that women were choosing in the ninth month of pregnancy to kill their baby, and that does not happen.

What does happen is a woman who wants her baby more than anything finds out that the baby has some sort of disease or anomaly or is unviable. And now that woman's life is at risk and she already has two children. And now she has to decide, do I go ahead and abort this baby that will not live anyway? Or do I try to save my own life?

for the sake of my children who are already here. And I don't know what I would choose in that decision. I might still try to go to, I don't know what I would do, but what I do know is I don't think the government should be the ones making that choice, that very, very difficult choice. And then I would also say how a DNC that a doctor performs for a miscarriage is the exact same procedure that they perform.

perform for an abortion and that when they put that in your medical records, whether it was for an abortion or for miscarriage, it goes in the same way. And that when you ban abortions, you are now putting all pregnant women at risk. I would just appeal to their empathy. And I do think that is a big problem, is a lot of people have been taught to completely shut down their empathy. And not to mention, there are Christians right now.

Calling empathy a sin. There's that book by Ali Beth Stuckey called toxic empathy, where they are literally like, you only have to say empathy is a sin. If you know deep down, you're not a good person. Like if you have to justify being a bad, like I think I, yeah, anyway, they, they call it toxic to justify their own bullying behavior. but anyway, that's what I would do. And I, you know, I've tried doing that on my own platforms before too. And in like conversations that I've had with people.

who could not vote for a Democrat because of the abortion issue. I had to learn all of that on my own, because I definitely wasn't going to learn that from Fox News. I was only ever taught ninth month murder. That was all I knew about abortion and some decapitation. There's just so much about it I did not know. I was taught a very, very, very small percentage of what an abortion is.

Keegan Goudiss (45:37)
Mm-hmm.

April Ajoy (46:00)
when that's hardly the tip of the iceberg of what it actually is. And then if I had to go biblically, you just say the Bible doesn't mention abortion at all. The only time it might reference it is in Jewish law in Exodus, where it says if a man harms a woman, a pregnant woman, and the woman, or if she miscarries because of it, then it's just a fine.

Keegan Goudiss (46:15)
Mm.

April Ajoy (46:26)
on the man, but if he kills the woman, then it's the, eye for an eye, it's the death penalty. So right there, the Bible does not view a fetus as the same as a woman. Like they're not on equal playing field and Jewish people. And it was their text before it was ours, the, the old Testament, the Hebrew Bible, like in the Jewish religion, they, they, if a woman's life is at risk, it is a religious duty to have an abortion. Like it is part of their religious.

beliefs and so by taking away, by banning abortion, you are now infringing on someone else's religious beliefs. And where's freedom of religion in that? I mean, there's so many angles to go by. mean, and because this is something that I've literally had to work through myself is like the only reason I didn't vote for Hillary in 2016 and I did not vote for Trump either, but I couldn't vote for Hillary because of abortion. And so I was like, well, I know I don't want Trump to be elected in 2020. So I need to figure out.

what's actually going on with the abortion issue. I actually liked Bernie. Abortion would have been the one thing, but honestly, this is so weird to think about, but he just seemed so genuine about his policies and his beliefs that if he had been the candidate and not Trump, I actually would have voted for Bernie. There was too much baggage with Hillary. I had heard too much Fox News propaganda about how terrible she was, so I couldn't do it.

Keegan Goudiss (47:28)
What did you think of Bernie? Did you like I mean, I yeah.

April Ajoy (47:52)
But hindsight though, in hindsight, I would have voted for Hillary.

Keegan Goudiss (47:55)
Yeah, I mean, Bernie, I worked with him very closely. don't I don't think Bernie would have been a good president much better than than than Trump, his first term or second term, but it would have been sort of his Bernie like always really wanted to get in everybody's business very much a micromanager. So he literally would have like called in the undersecretary in labor to like chew him out about something he was unhappy with, you know, and like, to me, like as an executive, that's not a great way of running things, but still much better than Trump.

April Ajoy (48:02)
agreed. Agreed. Yeah.

Mm.

Keegan Goudiss (48:21)
by far but I was curious was reading your book about that and I yeah. I want to be mindful of the of a hard stop here so I could talk about this for a very long time but I. You know I think about this a lot to especially around abortion and Democrats me personally I am someone who does not believe in life beginning conception I know that makes me heathen the eyes of many many Christians.

April Ajoy (48:24)
Yeah.

Keegan Goudiss (48:48)
I know, but that's just my personal belief. I don't think life begins until birth, but you know, and that's how I've how I've wrestled with it. And I understand why it's really hard for people to navigate that issue, especially if you're like this is murder and like who wants to support killing babies? Maybe there's a couple of awful people who are in favor of it, but like no one really wants to kill babies ever right? Even even if you if you're getting an abortion, I don't feel like you ever are like, you know, I really wanted to do today was murder some babies, right? Like that's not something that

April Ajoy (49:03)
Great.

Mm-hmm.

Keegan Goudiss (49:15)
that comes to anybody's head. It's

April Ajoy (49:17)
Right.

Keegan Goudiss (49:17)
a really awful experience. I'm saying through stories of friends, not obviously my own personal experience. But like, there is like, one aspect of Christian nationalism, I don't think that they can wrestle with, which is that like, I do believe women are actually goddesses, right? Like, ultimately, my own personal belief is that women are the ones who, with some help,

men like create lives, right? Like you carry this human being to term and create life, right? And that's not something that like, I feel like Christian men really appreciate. As you like we're almost out of time. So I'm curious, like, as we wrap up the show, if you could say anything to like a Christian man to like recognize the value of women in society, would it be around that? Or would it be around something else?

April Ajoy (50:09)
Well, think a lot of men, Christian nationalist men especially, I think they do value women when it comes to reproduction and giving births, but I think that's where their value of women stops. They look at women more as breeders than other human beings on equal playing field. mean, they're Christian nationalist men right now.

who have power and have influence on this Trump administration that want to repeal the 19th Amendment or go back to household voting where a woman doesn't have a vote. And Trump did some sort of executive order, or is it a policy? I don't know. There's literally so many things that he's doing right now that it's hard to keep track of the news cycle. But it basically is a voter suppression sort of law where you have to

where your ID has to match the name on your birth certificate to be eligible to vote, which automatically puts married women who have changed their names at risk. Like it's already discriminating against women.

And DEI, this whole war against DEI, also, like white women are part of DEI too. And, you know, and they're screaming against it. Like, you know, this, this has benefited you. You know, there's, it is, it is wild when you see people voting against their own interests. But I do think it's because there's so much misinformation and disinformation that people don't realize the harm that they're doing. I mean, it doesn't take away the fact that they are causing immense harm, but,

But yeah, so men, gosh, I mean, a misogynist is going to be a misogynist. And I don't know if we can convince, like, I don't know how to convince someone that I have worth as a human being if they've decided that I don't. you know, and that, that's a lot of labor on the, like, it's, it's already degrading enough to be viewed at as less than, but then to try to convince someone that you're not is almost just as degrading. Like,

I don't know. I can't tell you how many times I have men come into my comments and quote 2nd Timothy to me that a woman needs to be silent. So there's a lot of misogyny in that belief system.

Keegan Goudiss (52:26)
Well, just like you

doing a tour of college campuses, I would love to organize some men doing a tour to be like value of women tour, right? Like that's that's a whole other. We sadly don't have time to get into that. Thank you so much for for joining me on the forecast. April, I am want to make sure if people are interested in funding this tour, which you know, I hope happens. How can they get in contact with you?

April Ajoy (52:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, we need that.

Ha

Oh gosh, I mean, I guess you can email me. I don't have any plans or anything. This is like pie in the sky idea, but I do think it could be beneficial. Yeah, you can email me apriladjoy at gmail.com and maybe we can put some good minds together and make something happen.

Keegan Goudiss (53:01)
I hope it

Awesome. Well, thank you, April, and have a great rest of your day.

April Ajoy (53:10)
Thank you, you too.